UCF April 3 at 7:00 PM on FS1

[BearKatz]

Lots of strawmen here. I have never claimed that stats tell the whole story, that I prefer Simas over Rayvon, or that I would give up on a player based on freshman stats. Often times I simply present advanced statistics because they are part of the story. Everyone can come to their own conclusions based on them.

We don't know Kenyon's BPM because college basketball didn't fully track substitutions until 2008. But we can look at some advanced statistics. Kenyon committed 8.8 fouls per 40 minutes and had a 22.5% turnover rate, which as I said earlier are the two areas most freshmen struggle. That's why he only played 233 minutes over the 34 game season, an average of under 7 mpg. But he showed promise by making 65% effective field goals as a freshman with 13 rebounds, 4 blocks, and 2 steals per 40 minutes. Those per minute numbers stayed almost exactly the same throughout his career. He clearly had upside, but just needed to cut down on fouls and turnovers to get more playing time.

And that's all I said about Rayvon. He needs to foul less. I don't think that's controversial.

"Lots of strawmen here"

Really, lots of strawmen.... Hmmmm I don't think so!

First off, seems to me your taking it persoanlly! Funny thing is, lots of us in this Forum take things personal, Huh? No one said this was directed towards you! I was simply making a declarative statement and using Grffith as an example.

[BearKatz]

Just my two cents. But if a player freshmen or not, is fouling and rebounding and scoring it would be an indication that he is being active in a game. As opposed to one who rarely fouls, rarely rebounds and only scores points when they get the ball on the perimeter and happens to make them. Miller's evaluation of players is flawed. He has severely underestimated and obtained players to play the 4 & 5 positions, and when he does luck into some that could be serviceable he misuses them. He also is trying to find a pG who can " general" the floor but yet has no offensive scheme for the pg to run. He's obsessed with " shooters" and allows them play their game but the majority of his portal choices don't have any game except shooting. Betsy although a recruit, is a good example. He comes into the game and camps around the perimeter waiting to get his three pt. shot. He has the size and the agility to be an effective 4 if he would apply himself. There was one game and just one game when he got involved in scrums for rebounds and slashed a couple times for pts. It caused me and others to make a comment on this forum about that occurring. It makes me to wonder why the coaches do not emphasize the other aspects of bball or is it that the players do not want to do them because they were not taught them in AAU. Why are we not seeing any progress being made in a seasons worth of bball? It's been said here on this forum before but it takes incentive to rebound. You have to want to do it and nobody on Millers team wants to get in there and scrum for them. Bearcat basketball will never return until we get players who will do whatever it takes to make a team instead of those who want to put highlights on tape to build their brand.

Agree, well said!

[Rufus]

Just my two cents. But if a player freshmen or not, is fouling and rebounding and scoring it would be an indication that he is being active in a game. As opposed to one who rarely fouls, rarely rebounds and only scores points when they get the ball on the perimeter and happens to make them. Miller's evaluation of players is flawed. He has severely underestimated and obtained players to play the 4 & 5 positions, and when he does luck into some that could be serviceable he misuses them. He also is trying to find a pG who can " general" the floor but yet has no offensive scheme for the pg to run. He's obsessed with " shooters" and allows them play their game but the majority of his portal choices don't have any game except shooting. Betsy although a recruit, is a good example. He comes into the game and camps around the perimeter waiting to get his three pt. shot. He has the size and the agility to be an effective 4 if he would apply himself. There was one game and just one game when he got involved in scrums for rebounds and slashed a couple times for pts. It caused me and others to make a comment on this forum about that occurring. It makes me to wonder why the coaches do not emphasize the other aspects of bball or is it that the players do not want to do them because they were not taught them in AAU. Why are we not seeing any progress being made in a seasons worth of bball? It's been said here on this forum before but it takes incentive to rebound. You have to want to do it and nobody on Millers team wants to get in there and scrum for them. Bearcat basketball will never return until we get players who will do whatever it takes to make a team instead of those who want to put highlights on tape to build their brand.

[leo from jersey]

I'll let it go - but Go Cats

No I am still upset with how this season ended. The Coaches, Monster factory, Athletic department hierarchy and school admins need to be held accountable and told this by e-mail, phone of demonstration or other things.

[leeraymond]

The Bearcats' defense wasn't the problem. Even after Darius Johnson carved them up last night, UC's defensive efficiency is #22 in KenPom and #19 in BartTorvik. That puts them at #5 in the B12, which is darned good.

UC gave up 88 points and 50 alone came in the second half against UCF. Just for the record, UC scored 80 points. The way I look at college basketball, that is bad defense. UC may be defensively ranked fifth in the BIG XII, however, UC gave up 69 points a game in conference and had a conference record 7-13. Offense was an issue, but UC had a hard time stopping teams from scoring. In my mind, defense is an issue.

[sedz]

Would you take 10pts from Rayvon in 16mins and fouling out?

Yes, and I've said as much.

Rayvon's gotta stop fouling. He picked up 3 fouls in only 4 minutes yesterday and fouls 7 times per 40 minutes on the season. At this point might as well play him until he fouls out though, even if he doesn't make it to the second media timeout.

[sedz]

This is a place not just to give stats, but to vent and hopefully one day celebrate.

Couldn't have said it better Leo! Stats NEVER tell the whole story, regardless of what some think!

Example: Rayvon fouls too much in the short time he plays. I could argue who did he foul, how many foul shots were made? Was the game already decided? Etc etc etc....

Would you take 10pts from Rayvon in 16mins and fouling out? Or would you prefer some games Lukosius playing 20mins, and chipping in 6pts?

What's more valuable when your losing a game?

UC has had many players in the past, where the lights don't turn on till their Junior Season! How fair is it to judge every player on stats?

I'm curious, what was Kenyon Martin's Positive / Negative BPM after his first season with UC? Should we have given up on him after one year?

Lots of strawmen here. I have never claimed that stats tell the whole story, that I prefer Simas over Rayvon, or that I would give up on a player based on freshman stats. Often times I simply present advanced statistics because they are part of the story. Everyone can come to their own conclusions based on them.

We don't know Kenyon's BPM because college basketball didn't fully track substitutions until 2008. But we can look at some advanced statistics. Kenyon committed 8.8 fouls per 40 minutes and had a 22.5% turnover rate, which as I said earlier are the two areas most freshmen struggle. That's why he only played 233 minutes over the 34 game season, an average of under 7 mpg. But he showed promise by making 65% effective field goals as a freshman with 13 rebounds, 4 blocks, and 2 steals per 40 minutes. Those per minute numbers stayed almost exactly the same throughout his career. He clearly had upside, but just needed to cut down on fouls and turnovers to get more playing time.

And that's all I said about Rayvon. He needs to foul less. I don't think that's controversial.

[London 'Cat]

This is a place not just to give stats, but to vent and hopefully one day celebrate.

Couldn't have said it better Leo! Stats NEVER tell the whole story, regardless of what some think!

Example: Rayvon fouls too much in the short time he plays. I could argue who did he foul, how many foul shots were made? Was the game already decided? Etc etc etc....

Would you take 10pts from Rayvon in 16mins and fouling out? Or would you prefer some games Lukosius playing 20mins, and chipping in 6pts?

What's more valuable when your losing a game?

UC has had many players in the past, where the lights don't turn on till their Junior Season! How fair is it to judge every player on stats?

I'm curious, what was Kenyon Martin's Positive / Negative BPM after his first season with UC? Should we have given up on him after one year?

Counter points. The college game has changed immensely since Martin was a freshman. Much easier to transfer with the portal. Players can now be paid directly and through NIL. If a player has not received his perceived playing time he can easily transfer to another school. The metrics of a player are often the most useful measure of a player’s value to a team and program overall. There is never a guarantee that a player will be on a roster beyond the current season, much less a third season.

[BearKatz]

This is a place not just to give stats, but to vent and hopefully one day celebrate.

Couldn't have said it better Leo! Stats NEVER tell the whole story, regardless of what some think!

Example: Rayvon fouls too much in the short time he plays. I could argue who did he foul, how many foul shots were made? Was the game already decided? Etc etc etc....

Would you take 10pts from Rayvon in 16mins and fouling out? Or would you prefer some games Lukosius playing 20mins, and chipping in 6pts?

What's more valuable when your losing a game?

UC has had many players in the past, where the lights don't turn on till their Junior Season! How fair is it to judge every player on stats?

I'm curious, what was Kenyon Martin's Positive / Negative BPM after his first season with UC? Should we have given up on him after one year?

[swilsonsp4]

Kilpatrick, Caupain, and Cumberland were not good defenders (I do not remember Logan's defensive capabilities). They never were. Cronin understood that. That is why he developed defensive systems that relied more on switching principles rather than have his guards attempt to run through picks and screens. Miller does not understand that. However, all of the guys I just mentioned were not one-dimensional players. In my mind, that is the big difference in how old UC coaches recruited compared to how Miller recruits. Even you have complained about all of the one-dimensional players that Miller has brought in. From what I have seen of Abaev, he may be more of the same.

I was watching the McDonalds game, and I begin to wonder who K. Sampson recruited. I am NOT lying when I tell you before I even knew who the Houston recruit was, I was able to pick him out by understanding how Houston plays and what Sampson might be looking for in a player. Hartswell, or something like, was the Houston recruit. The way that he moved, his energy, and his continuous motion made me say to myself, that is a Houston recruit. And sure enough, he was. Abaev was totally different in his presence and movement. That is the difference between a winning coach and a losing coach: recruits.

To me, it is a good thing when a freshman, no matter if he is a pro-prospect, cannot come in and take a veteran's position. That shows that a punk freshman coming from high school is no match for college men. Sometimes a freshman can come in and take somebody's spot. Since I have been watching UC basketball, that does not happen often. I do not think that Abaev is going to move anybody out; but maybe he can.

Even in Miller's old fashion, out of date, and ineffective defense, a guy probably will not see the floor unless he can play a little defense. The only problem is Miller's defensive system is no good.

The Bearcats' defense wasn't the problem. Even after Darius Johnson carved them up last night, UC's defensive efficiency is #22 in KenPom and #19 in BartTorvik. That puts them at #5 in the B12, which is darned good.

[bearcatbret]

And to think that Freshmen will contribute, Kilpatrick redshirted his freshman year. Of course, that was partly due to "Born Ready" on the team.

[leeraymond]

In all fairness -- Logan and Kilpatrick had coaches who understood defense - both its value and how to teach it -- they also expected the players to play it - of course they didn't expect one to play what they had not been taught or had the heart for. Concerning your reply to Lee. He just stated his opinion as a lover of the Cats; as did you. All views should be considered with grace. I know last year I got all kinds of slack for going against JJ in here. This is a place not just to give stats, but to vent and hopefully one day celebrate. I don't think Lee was being personal. He was being a fan. Everyone's voice adds to our community.

Hey Leo, I appreciate the shout-out. I did not take Sedz's comments personally. He is a concerned UC Bearcat fan like we all are. He wants the team to win. Look, we are all a little upset by how the season played itself out. We expected so much more out of this team. This team was a top 20 national team; 10-1 in the non-conference and became a doormat team in the BIG XII. UC ended up in 13th place out of 16 teams. UC lost 5 of its last 7 games. That really is hard to take.

There are spill-over emotions impacting our views of the recruiting. Abaev is the target of focus right now. He is going to be scrutinized. That is natural coming from the fans and stakeholders. I truly hope that Abaev can come in and make plays. God knows that UC needs all the help that it can get. For Miller's sake, let's hope that he made the right choice in recruits. Stay tuned.

[leeraymond]

We have brought in many scorers who could not defend at first. Sean Kilpatrick and Steve Logan to name a couple.

If you want guys who excel at offense and defense when they step foot on campus, call up Cincy Reigns and tell 'em you're ready to sign an 8 figure check.

Kilpatrick, Caupain, and Cumberland were not good defenders (I do not remember Logan's defensive capabilities). They never were. Cronin understood that. That is why he developed defensive systems that relied more on switching principles rather than have his guards attempt to run through picks and screens. Miller does not understand that. However, all of the guys I just mentioned were not one-dimensional players. In my mind, that is the big difference in how old UC coaches recruited compared to how Miller recruits. Even you have complained about all of the one-dimensional players that Miller has brought in. From what I have seen of Abaev, he may be more of the same.

I was watching the McDonalds game, and I begin to wonder who K. Sampson recruited. I am NOT lying when I tell you before I even knew who the Houston recruit was, I was able to pick him out by understanding how Houston plays and what Sampson might be looking for in a player. Hartswell, or something like, was the Houston recruit. The way that he moved, his energy, and his continuous motion made me say to myself, that is a Houston recruit. And sure enough, he was. Abaev was totally different in his presence and movement. That is the difference between a winning coach and a losing coach: recruits.

To me, it is a good thing when a freshman, no matter if he is a pro-prospect, cannot come in and take a veteran's position. That shows that a punk freshman coming from high school is no match for college men. Sometimes a freshman can come in and take somebody's spot. Since I have been watching UC basketball, that does not happen often. I do not think that Abaev is going to move anybody out; but maybe he can.

Even in Miller's old fashion, out of date, and ineffective defense, a guy probably will not see the floor unless he can play a little defense. The only problem is Miller's defensive system is no good.

[zykarious]

And that's not unusual for a first year player, but it's one of the reasons freshman typically don't come in and start right away. The other is turnovers, but Rayvon has been very good at taking care of the ball this year - his 8% TO rate tied with Reed for best on the team.

I'm all about athletic wings who can shoot, rebound, and defend multiple positions. Rayvon fits that mold so I hope he stays and earns a rotation spot.

I think there's a lot to like about Rayvon, yes he fouls too much and his defense was suspect at times early in the season. But he rebounds very well for his size, consistently brings energy and his defense improved throughout the season. Plus he's shown an ability to handle the ball, back down his defender and score with a short jumper that no one else on the team has shown, plus he seems to actually draw fouls.

The problem is I don't think he handles the ball well enough to play the 2, which puts him in direct competition with Reed for backup minutes if they both return. Is he up for that? We know Reed is a hard worker and excellent defender, if Reed can improve his three point shot over the summer (should be the main focus area of him and Jizzle) he can be a quality 3-and-D guy and hard to steal minutes from. Griffith is smaller, but has more athleticism, is a better rebounder (especially on the offensive end) and more overall offensive ability, so I could see him beating Reed out, but it would definitely be easier to get guaranteed minutes elsewhere.

[Rufus]

When you have point guard that don't pass, won't defend, wont rebound, won't try to steal the ball, refuses to pass unless forced to, and then have two wings in your rotation that hardly move to get a pass, and are happy to sit and wait for a pass that never comes, and when you put PG at shooting guard but can't do anything but take desperation shots is not going to win many games. I can't see anyone paying him the kind of money we are to transfer so what's a coach to do. If Tillery or Abeav can do anything at all relative to the position they were recruited for on a consistent basis, for however minutes they each get a game would be more than what we got the majority of games this year. We have too too many players that are one dimensional and relish on that one dimension .