Big East / Catholic Schools looking to split 2014

[2kirkalypse]

I actually have a lot of faith in Santa and Whit to make sure the athletics department ends up in the right conference. I think the combination of Santa's energy and Whit's intelligence bode well for the future

I think the reason for a lot of this mess is former prez Williams. He threw all of his chips in the BE pot and did not develop a back up plan in case the worst case scenario happened

[mjv780]

I actually have a lot of faith in Santa and Whit to make sure the athletics department ends up in the right conference. I think the combination of Santa's energy and Whit's intelligence bode well for the future

I think the reason for a lot of this mess is former prez Williams. He threw all of his chips in the BE pot and did not develop a back up plan in case the worst case scenario happened

The problem with the first part of your statement is that Prez Ono and AD Babcock can spend every waking minute of their time trying to get UC into a better conference, and it won't matter if those conferences don't see value in UC.

[Jmac84]

"Agreed. And that's very frustrating, to the point where college athletics is pretty much not interesting to me any more. I used to believe that college athletics were the more pure form of the NBA and NFL and that's why I watched. No longer. Even in the NCAA, doing things the right way just gets you kicked to the curb."

This is what I've been saying. The greed associated with the NCAA increases by the moment. At least professional sports are honest about their end game.

[2kirkalypse]

The problem with the first part of your statement is that Prez Ono and AD Babcock can spend every waking minute of their time trying to get UC into a better conference, and it won't matter if those conferences don't see value in UC.

good point, which is really depressing!

[cincycpaw]

The problem with the first part of your statement is that Prez Ono and AD Babcock can spend every waking minute of their time trying to get UC into a better conference, and it won't matter if those conferences don't see value in UC.

Then we add value through free design and engineering work, free concerts, and send them regular shipments of Skyline and Graeters. Seriously, we could be in the Big 10 if we follow this path!

As it stands I feel ill about all of this and keep hoping for the next shoe to drop. I'm losing my patience.

[bobestes]

One of the frustrating things about this whole mess is that I feel like our school has essentially done everything right over the past however many years. We are graduating our athletes at a high rate, we haven't had the NCAA sniffing around in years, we have upgraded our facilities, we have hired good coaches then hired good coaches to replace the good coaches, and we win at high rates in the two major sports. And yet, nobody seems to care. Conference after conference looks right past us and we keep getting relegated further and further to the Belly Button League. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I have heard all the money/fans in the seats arguments. I don't care. We consistently get more out of our teams than anyone on the national scene ever expects and we get nothing for it. I know there are bigger things in the world to worry about, but it still stinks.

Our school has absolutely NOT done everything right.

We were in the same position as Louisville years ago, and they invested in their program, and now they are in the big leagues. Watching us scramble to throw together videos about a stadium we maybe might build is depressing, Louisville did that ten years ago.

Other schools saw this coming, we didn't, and we are stuck.

[1977 BearCat]

Our school has absolutely NOT done everything right.

We were in the same position as Louisville years ago, and they invested in their program, and now they are in the big leagues. Watching us scramble to throw together videos about a stadium we maybe might build is depressing, Louisville did that ten years ago.

Other schools saw this coming, we didn't, and we are stuck.

I'm not sure that were stuck, but your right about the other stuff. We paid the entry fee to the country club but for some reason decided we didn't need to pay the annual membership dues.

[bobestes]

I'm not sure that were stuck, but your right about the other stuff. We paid the entry fee to the country club but for some reason decided we didn't need to pay the annual membership dues.

Very well said.

[Antonio]

Our school has absolutely NOT done everything right.

We were in the same position as Louisville years ago, and they invested in their program, and now they are in the big leagues. Watching us scramble to throw together videos about a stadium we maybe might build is depressing, Louisville did that ten years ago.

Other schools saw this coming, we didn't, and we are stuck.

To be slightly fair, it goes a lot deeper. We had to build the Lindner center to just get back to the median in facilities, let alone needed upgrades to Nippert and the Shoe.

That said, Louisville jettisoned Freedom Hall for an area that is already looking like it is crippling the city to an extent without a primary tenant. And they paid for their football stadium with primarily private funding, and creative city and county deals, but even still around 46 percent public funds. The were able to generate $15 million in sales of seat licenses and tickets prior to construction (around 4k total sales at around $3750 a pop). Combined with $27 mil in corporate gifts and they were well on the way. Commitments from the city and county, revenue bonds, etc, all played in. Keep in mind, Louisville needed a Paul Brown type multi use modern stadium like this, so it was much easier to get people to step up and get it done. Think the city of Cincy or Hamilton County would ever step up like this to get a Nippert Expansion done?

They also used it as a halo, letting the new stadium help generate revenues needed to pay for the sort of facilities expansion we sunk dollars into without first investing those dollars in a stadium to get the luxury box revenue like Louisville does. Expensive, renewable, corporate seating is a source of millions in revenue every year. Like a live, in person, TV deal for everyone who buys in.

We built the Lindner center before we built a program. So it's not easy to say that we should have made the investment in Nippert first when Nippert was drawing 20k on a good day when the investment to build the Lindner center was made. Additionally, the Lindner center was needed for non-athletic reasons--campus health clinic, the attached rec center and other facilities, suites of scholastic and academic practical facilities, etc.

The realistic situation is our Basketball program (read:coach) got us invited to the Big East, but we weren't ready from a facilities standpoint at all, and had to make needed investments just to get to the median.

Louisville is a city not beholden to professional sports franchises, so it makes sense that they'd see a lot of public and private dollars that are otherwise spent in Cincinnati on awful things like lining Mike Brown's pockets.

Could Cincy have expanded Nippert before building Lindner? Yes. But try making that sales pitch when Nippert was often less than half full in the period when the financing for the Lindner center and Varsity Village were being arranged.

Long story short, the only thing Cincy screwed up on doing was waiting until Louisville to the ACC looked like a done deal to campaign for inclusion and give a hard sell on Nippert expansion. If our hat had been in the ring first, who knows what would have happened. But I'm not sure how we could have handled it differently.

I'll also point out that Cincy's major players in this regard (football coach, AD, hoops coach, President) either left the school, or lacked credibility to ask for anything in the key periods that this needed to be done. There are plenty of questionable decisions that had the board at odds with President Williams. No football coach has ever wanted to dig in and sell this program's next 10 years hard. The basketball coach has a hard enough time getting that program back on track, and, realistically until about 9 months ago, had an absolutely coach's dream of a conference as it is. And our AD hopping in the key periods associated here hasn't helped either. Goin's investment in Varsity Village was needed to get us into the Big East to begin with, I'm not sure what more he could have done after that to plan for the next move, but he was gone before it was his place to do it, and his successors had to deal with the huge spending that was made in order to get UC even to the Big East.

We aren't Louisville. And while we have a better history, are in a bigger city, and have more things to brag about generally speaking, with those things comes the lack of a singular focus on Cincinnati Athletics that Louisville has for its university's teams. These distinctions were never crystal clear while we were side by side in conferences for decades, but the lines were drawn when Louisville (the city and university community) went all in on a football stadium for the Big East move. Now, they are worlds ahead of us, and we can't ever rightly argue they shouldn't be. They gambled with their football stadium investment, and it is paying off, even as their similar investment in the basketball arena isn't.

[1977 BearCat]

To be slightly fair, it goes a lot deeper. We had to build the Lindner center to just get back to the median in facilities, let alone needed upgrades to Nippert and the Shoe.

That said, Louisville jettisoned Freedom Hall for an area that is already looking like it is crippling the city to an extent without a primary tenant. And they paid for their football stadium with primarily private funding, and creative city and county deals, but even still around 46 percent public funds. The were able to generate $15 million in sales of seat licenses and tickets prior to construction (around 4k total sales at around $3750 a pop). Combined with $27 mil in corporate gifts and they were well on the way. Commitments from the city and county, revenue bonds, etc, all played in. Keep in mind, Louisville needed a Paul Brown type multi use modern stadium like this, so it was much easier to get people to step up and get it done. Think the city of Cincy or Hamilton County would ever step up like this to get a Nippert Expansion done?

They also used it as a halo, letting the new stadium help generate revenues needed to pay for the sort of facilities expansion we sunk dollars into without first investing those dollars in a stadium to get the luxury box revenue like Louisville does. Expensive, renewable, corporate seating is a source of millions in revenue every year. Like a live, in person, TV deal for everyone who buys in.

We built the Lindner center before we built a program. So it's not easy to say that we should have made the investment in Nippert first when Nippert was drawing 20k on a good day when the investment to build the Lindner center was made. Additionally, the Lindner center was needed for non-athletic reasons--campus health clinic, the attached rec center and other facilities, suites of scholastic and academic practical facilities, etc.

The realistic situation is our Basketball program (read:coach) got us invited to the Big East, but we weren't ready from a facilities standpoint at all, and had to make needed investments just to get to the median.

Louisville is a city not beholden to professional sports franchises, so it makes sense that they'd see a lot of public and private dollars that are otherwise spent in Cincinnati on awful things like lining Mike Brown's pockets.

Could Cincy have expanded Nippert before building Lindner? Yes. But try making that sales pitch when Nippert was often less than half full in the period when the financing for the Lindner center and Varsity Village were being arranged.

Long story short, the only thing Cincy screwed up on doing was waiting until Louisville to the ACC looked like a done deal to campaign for inclusion and give a hard sell on Nippert expansion. If our hat had been in the ring first, who knows what would have happened. But I'm not sure how we could have handled it differently.

I'll also point out that Cincy's major players in this regard (football coach, AD, hoops coach, President) either left the school, or lacked credibility to ask for anything in the key periods that this needed to be done. There are plenty of questionable decisions that had the board at odds with President Williams. No football coach has ever wanted to dig in and sell this program's next 10 years hard. The basketball coach has a hard enough time getting that program back on track, and, realistically until about 9 months ago, had an absolutely coach's dream of a conference as it is. And our AD hopping in the key periods associated here hasn't helped either. Goin's investment in Varsity Village was needed to get us into the Big East to begin with, I'm not sure what more he could have done after that to plan for the next move, but he was gone before it was his place to do it, and his successors had to deal with the huge spending that was made in order to get UC even to the Big East.

We aren't Louisville. And while we have a better history, are in a bigger city, and have more things to brag about generally speaking, with those things comes the lack of a singular focus on Cincinnati Athletics that Louisville has for its university's teams. These distinctions were never crystal clear while we were side by side in conferences for decades, but the lines were drawn when Louisville (the city and university community) went all in on a football stadium for the Big East move. Now, they are worlds ahead of us, and we can't ever rightly argue they shouldn't be. They gambled with their football stadium investment, and it is paying off, even as their similar investment in the basketball arena isn't.

You make some good points. There is no doubt UC faces greater challenges in the athletic fund raising and tickets sales arenas than UL (e.g. Bungals, Reds, etc.). However, when you are "nouveau riche" like UC became when it got the Big East invite, you have to go the extra mile if you ever want to be accepted by the blue bloods.

You can't cut programs (and the fact that Blue Blood U also cut its wrestling, etc. is not relevant because they are well established members of the club).

You need to have meaningful plans to build an indoor facility, to build luxury boxes etc. long before a coach affectively black mails you or the ACC chooses another program over yours.

You can't have the latest AD (who I believe is of very high quality) trying to get some budget relief related to the athletic department's financial responsibility for Varsity Village construction costs which, in my opinion, should have been treated by the university as part of necessary infrastructure of a major university.

Could UC have realistically accomplished what UL did, probably not. However, the UC Administration (BOT, Zimpher, and Williams) collectively did little to ensure that the athletic department was at least making a good effort to keep up with the competition.

One last thought. There are powerful members of the Blue Blood crowd that weren't happy UC got invited to the Club and have a vested interest in having UC thrown out of the Club. Every move UC made should have taken that fact into consideration as well.

[coach]

where louisville is concerned, for those who have not been to the new yum center, it's not an on campus facility. in fact, i'm not even sure it's ul's facility. it's downtown and hosts other events as well. why would the city of cincy dream of doing that when we have the luxury of spending three qtrs of a billion dollars on mikey brown.

[RedRocker]

where louisville is concerned, for those who have not been to the new yum center, it's not an on campus facility. in fact, i'm not even sure it's ul's facility. it's downtown and hosts other events as well. why would the city of cincy dream of doing that when we have the luxury of spending three qtrs of a billion dollars on mikey brown.

It's not UL's facility. Louisville Arena Authority owns it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFC_Yum!_Center

[Lobot]

mark blaudschun @blauds

Barring last minute snag, Big East-Catholic 7 should make split official on Thursday http://ajerseyguy.com

[Rational Cat]

The C7 really needed to keep the "Big East" name. It seems like somebody already registered <snip>

Thumbs down.

Many good Catholic folks, including me, are also ardent UC fans.

Poor form.

[longtimefan]

Thumbs down.

Many good Catholic folks, including me, are also ardent UC fans.

Poor form.

Also Catholic, altar boy, married in the church, grew up when the whole mass was in latin. I think it is just sad that these guys now think they are too good to be in a conference with Memphis, Tulane and UCF. I did not mean to offend anybody here.

Rumex si te offensi quis.