Wes Miller thread Take 2

[leeraymond]

"Grossly underperformed" according to who? They were picked for 6th place pre-season. This is a roster thrown together over a few short weeks. Yes, early season success may have raised dour expectations / hopes. But once teams got enough tape, the Bearcats deficiencies were fully on display. The honeymoon isn't over, sorry. Just like with Coach Fickell we need to give Coach Miller a chance to build his own roster. This is no different than the mess that Cronin inherited. How many years did it take for him to right the ship? Seeing the recruits that are coming to visit or putting UC as finalists is very encouraging. Never saw the likes of them before. I know we all want instant success. Rarely happens. Just look at Houston. Sampson has been there 8 years now. How'd those first few years go for him?

I do agree that this year's team was put together on a wing and a prayer. I also agree that in a lot of the cases, NOT ALL, a new coach needs some time to get acceptable results. On the other hand, this year's UC team had many 3, 4, and 5 year D-1 level players. This team has plenty of playing experience. This team has some pretty good parts and pieces. A good solid coach that knows how to maximize his players' performances could have gotten all types of positive play out of them (think Bob Huggins in 89/90 with that rag-tag team. Think Cronin in Sean Kilpatrick's last year. That team had nothing, but they made it to the NCAAs). I have seen every UC game this season. They played to impress, but NOT to win. They DID NOT play as a team. How many ONE-MAN fast breaks did we see this season with men open down court? How many times did players take wild shots from 3 point distance with plenty time left on the clock? UC was in 9 close games this season where the game was still up for grabs with about 3 or 4 minutes left on the clock (AR, Monmouth, Miami, 1st Memphis game, Wichita St., 1st Temple game, 2nd ECU game, 2nd South Fla. game, and 2nd SMU game). UC LOST 6 of those 9 games. Those losses resulted mainly from untimely turnovers, bad shot selection, bizarre substitution patterns, lack of timely defensive rebounding, and an inability to get defensive stops when they were really needed. Good teams do NOT have these types of break-downs in their play. Also, and more importantly, this team does NOT have good player leadership. It is difficult for the team's so-called best player to get in another player's face to challenge him to NOT make mistakes when the best player makes the most mistakes. This year's team have a lot of problems and the coaching staff appeared not to do a lot to find solutions. I like Miller. I believe that you got to give the man time to get his type players in his system. However, good coaches are aware that sometimes things do not happen has planned. In those cases, you must build a system around your player's capabilities. With the level of experience on this team (4 former Power 5 players, one 4 star recruit and many 3 star recruits, former SEC All Defensive Team player, and a coach that won 20 games a season for 5 consecutive years), they had the capabilities to win more than 7 out of 18 conference games. Maybe I am a little hard on the team. I want them to win EVERY GAME. Once a losing culture creeps into a program, it is very difficult to remove it. No one wants that. UC basketball has a losing conference record for the first time in approximately 15 years. Neither one of Brannen's two UC teams had a losing record in the conference. It took Miller 6 years at UNCG to bring home a team with a consistent winning record. He is NOT going have 6 years to do his thing. I am positive on Miller. The next step is to bring in some players that can play Miller's style of ball effectively. I am looking forward to next year.

[coach]

I actually think DDJ, JD, MS and even MAW have all improved. MAW and MS big issues are both in the shooting dept. which once you get to the college level is not one where huge strides are often made. If you did not need both of those kids to be scorers there offensive woes would not be a big issue. When you get into MM and Vik, they've both had their injury bugs, and particularly in Vik's case it's his first season. Almost the same for JH given he didn't play a lot last year in an abbreviated season. JH is more comfortable though on the court now than at the beginning of the year based on the eye test. I think he's starting to get his sea legs so to speak. HK and AA are 6th year guys, they're not going to turn into big time offensive kids in 8 months. JN and OO are kind of unique. JN has played pretty well towards the end of the year particularly given he also had injury bugs this and last year. If this team had a solid front court scorer, like an Eason this year, it would make the rest of the guys a lot better. We just don't have that guy right now. There's a reason we were picked in preseason to be a middle of the pack team. It's gonna take time, the 3 coaches in 4 years has left a roster of little experience playing together. It's important unless you field an AAU all star team and even that doesn't work all the time. A lot of these kids have played under multiple coaches. Not easy. Not a true senior scholarship Cincy player on the roster other than I guess Sam Martin who's a walk on.

[BorisTheCat]

Richard.. I agree with most of what you say but.. I think if we HAD seen some players develop this year, we would have given coach credit for improving guys which talent levels that you speak of. That development really did not happen. The down side of that is that.. we are saying that the only way this team WILL improve is thru roster turnover. If that is the truth... so be it.. i just means that you are
looking at another 3-4 years for that roster turnover to be complete.

[richard k.]

Seriously what did people realistically expect? Maybe they keep putting the same guys out there because in their estimation that’s the best they have. People looking for improvement? If you’ve been at the college level for 3/4 years, except for some rare instances how much better are you going to get? People acknowledge that there are reasons some of these guys were still available at a late point and yet somehow Wes is supposed to turn them into players they never were. Look, as long as they are trying you simply can not expect them to be more physically/mentally able then they are capable of being! This is no knock on these kids - they are what they are - but people who expected this obviously flawed group to be much more than they have been were never going to be right!

[bba_1979]

I am not a basketball coach, so maybe what I am about to write does not make a lot of sense. The numbers do not lie. If you look at the conference stats on the season for UC basketball, they are horrible. For instance, UC was outscored 70.2 to 68.8; outrebounded 39.6 to 36.4; opposing teams shot a higher 3pt. average .349 to .333; and was outshot from 2pt. range .416 to .395. I am of the mindset that when something does not work well, try something else. Why continue to work the same starting lineup and substitution patterns when you are getting your #@%$&^ kicked night in and night out. UC takes a 5 GAME LOSING STREAK into the conference tournament. No other team in the AAC has more than a 2-game losing streak going into tournament play. At what point, if you are a coach, do you look for some solutions when things are NOT going right? I guess Miller and Roberts never got to that point this season. Now the regular season is finished. All that UC basketball has to show for the season is an 8th place team in the AAC that grossly underperformed. The honeymoon season is NOW over for Miller and company. They will have a chance to bring in some of THEIR recruits for next season. The pressure just got more intense. Let's see if Miller can get to a post season tournament next year, or, at least, improve the conference record from this year. We will see.

"Grossly underperformed" according to who? They were picked for 6th place pre-season. This is a roster thrown together over a few short weeks. Yes, early season success may have raised dour expectations / hopes. But once teams got enough tape, the Bearcats deficiencies were fully on display. The honeymoon isn't over, sorry. Just like with Coach Fickell we need to give Coach Miller a chance to build his own roster. This is no different than the mess that Cronin inherited. How many years did it take for him to right the ship? Seeing the recruits that are coming to visit or putting UC as finalists is very encouraging. Never saw the likes of them before. I know we all want instant success. Rarely happens. Just look at Houston. Sampson has been there 8 years now. How'd those first few years go for him?

[leeraymond]

I am not a basketball coach, so maybe what I am about to write does not make a lot of sense. The numbers do not lie. If you look at the conference stats on the season for UC basketball, they are horrible. For instance, UC was outscored 70.2 to 68.8; outrebounded 39.6 to 36.4; opposing teams shot a higher 3pt. average .349 to .333; and was outshot from 2pt. range .416 to .395. I am of the mindset that when something does not work well, try something else. Why continue to work the same starting lineup and substitution patterns when you are getting your #@%$&^ kicked night in and night out. UC takes a 5 GAME LOSING STREAK into the conference tournament. No other team in the AAC has more than a 2-game losing streak going into tournament play. At what point, if you are a coach, do you look for some solutions when things are NOT going right? I guess Miller and Roberts never got to that point this season. Now the regular season is finished. All that UC basketball has to show for the season is an 8th place team in the AAC that grossly underperformed. The honeymoon season is NOW over for Miller and company. They will have a chance to bring in some of THEIR recruits for next season. The pressure just got more intense. Let's see if Miller can get to a post season tournament next year, or, at least, improve the conference record from this year. We will see.

[Rufus]

That's just coach talk for "these kids today are not going to be recruited just to sit the bench for a freshman and sophomore year so they can be developed" They are not going to be here for more than two years max in all likelihood anyway so you have to play them now or lose them. His philosophy of having five guys running from coast to coast needs ten or more guys that can shoot and score, pass for the easy , open shot and open to everyone scoring the ball. And as we all know we dont have it then present time.

[BorisTheCat]

Yeah... of late everybody looks good and fresh in their losses... LOL. But I get it and had they been winning a lot of late, we'd probably not even notice. Just seems like that eliminates sticking with the hot hand on those nights where someone might ACTIVELY be earning time on the court for that game.

[richard k.]

Playing time is EVERYTHING to players... it's the best way to reward those following the coach's plans. Again, I yield to what CWM has found works best for him but... seems weird to me.

While the timing of the substitution patterns may be suspect Miller has said he believes allowing excessive court time over the season wears out your best players so that they are too tired to be at their best towards the end of the season. Argue that if you want (especially the way this team currently looks) but if you look at the average game court time it certainly looks as if the players most of us think should be on the court have the most playing time. And while some may think they aren't on the court enough, unless coach changes his philosophy this is what we'll continue to see.

[BorisTheCat]

Playing time is EVERYTHING to players... it's the best way to reward those following the coach's plans. Again, I yield to what CWM has found works best for him but... seems weird to me.

[Carin's Dad]

One thing I did hear CWM mention surprised/disappointed me. He pretty much said that their sub rotations and playing time are pretty much set. Players know when they will be subbing in and how many minutes that will likely get. He says that he likes his players to have that predictability. While I get that, that approach seems to result in what we see with Madsen.... hits 3/4 and then sits. Seems to me you can have a general idea but if Madsen is hitting, why would you pull him for say MAW who is a fairly poor shooter. Now all of that being said, if that has always been his approach and it obviously has been succesful... he knows way better than me. I just like the idea of minutes almost being guaranteed... that's the coach's best leverage.

Reminds me of the one game I coached my daughter's co-ed team. They got upset when I kept the best player on the floor instead of making every kid get equal floor time. But that was 5th or 6th grade.

[Gmann]

One thing I did hear CWM mention surprised/disappointed me. He pretty much said that their sub rotations and playing time are pretty much set. Players know when they will be subbing in and how many minutes that will likely get. He says that he likes his players to have that predictability. While I get that, that approach seems to result in what we see with Madsen.... hits 3/4 and then sits. Seems to me you can have a general idea but if Madsen is hitting, why would you pull him for say MAW who is a fairly poor shooter. Now all of that being said, if that has always been his approach and it obviously has been succesful... he knows way better than me. I just like the idea of minutes almost being guaranteed... that's the coach's best leverage.

Really no incentive to play harder or better if minutes are pretty much pre-determined. There's no carrot or stick in that approach and could certainly lead to the decline we've seen.

[BorisTheCat]

One thing I did hear CWM mention surprised/disappointed me. He pretty much said that their sub rotations and playing time are pretty much set. Players know when they will be subbing in and how many minutes that will likely get. He says that he likes his players to have that predictability. While I get that, that approach seems to result in what we see with Madsen.... hits 3/4 and then sits. Seems to me you can have a general idea but if Madsen is hitting, why would you pull him for say MAW who is a fairly poor shooter. Now all of that being said, if that has always been his approach and it obviously has been succesful... he knows way better than me. I just dont like the idea of minutes almost being guaranteed... that's the coach's best leverage.

[Gmann]

Yesterday at a high level high school playoff game, I had the opportunity to visit at length with a local AD friend who is VERY well connected in Chapel Hill. I asked him about Wes. To my surprise he responded that the majority of the committee hiring votes last year at NC were in support of selecting Wes, but that the underlying agreement in Roy's contract were that he got to select his replacement unless he waived that right, which he didn't. Roy made the call, the committee's recommendation was over ridden. Time will tell at both ends who got the best of that deal but my point is blue blood NC wanted the guy we got, so we owe it to him to give him the time to develop and implement his own system and guys. FYI, for those of us who followed Roy's career fairly closely, Wes looks like a carbon copy on and off the court. The same things we are complaining about Roy has been accused of for years. His record stands for itself and the only difference is the caliber of player he had at his dispose. Just saying......

I think the last line is the key to whole thing. If Wes can't get the blue chip players like Roy did (because of the elite Tar Heel program) I don't see much success since development seems not to be a strength. After the season ends in a few short weeks we should start to see whether there will be apprecialble upgrades to the roster and more communication on just what will improve things going forward.

[RedDog]

Yesterday at a high level high school playoff game, I had the opportunity to visit at length with a local AD friend who is VERY well connected in Chapel Hill. I asked him about Wes. To my surprise he responded that the majority of the committee hiring votes last year at NC were in support of selecting Wes, but that the underlying agreement in Roy's contract were that he got to select his replacement unless he waived that right, which he didn't. Roy made the call, the committee's recommendation was over ridden. Time will tell at both ends who got the best of that deal but my point is blue blood NC wanted the guy we got, so we owe it to him to give him the time to develop and implement his own system and guys. FYI, for those of us who followed Roy's career fairly closely, Wes looks like a carbon copy on and off the court. The same things we are complaining about Roy has been accused of for years. His record stands for itself and the only difference is the caliber of player he had at his dispose. Just saying......