The Wes Miller Thread

[JBB]

Wes is toast. He doesn’t have it to lead this program. Going to poke the bear, but Chris Mack might be a coach to consider, I’m just saying, he has delivered at a big time program and is now rebuilding his image, same as Hugs

[Rufus]

It was brought out how Kansas State were killing us in the paint, driving to the rim, etc. and Wes just stuck to his same defense. It never occurs to him to go to a zone and force the opposition to shoot outside shots which in KSU's case were not hitting them. His refusal to change things on offense and defense when things are not working leaves me dumbfounded. I've said many times that I'm not a bball expert so I don't know if its his stubbornness or of his being overwhelmed. I tend to think it's his stubbornness because I can't see all of those coaches and assistants, who have spent multiple years in bball not suggesting adjustments or just leaving things as they are. That in itself is troubling because if that is the situation then obtaining all new assistants will do absolutely nothing. And this makes no sense when it is considered that winning games and getting to the tournament is the very benchmark of success. Having a winning record does not cut it today. I guess I'm just rambling but we have seen enough body of Millers work and I say the 9mil buyout is the reason JC's keeping him. And with CWM's history of portal acquisitions I don't see anything changing

[leeraymond]

It was brought out how Kansas State were killing us in the paint, driving to the rim, etc. and Wes just stuck to his same defense. It never occurs to him to go to a zone and force the opposition to shoot outside shots which in KSU's case were not hitting them. His refusal to change things on offense and defense when things are not working leaves me dumbfounded. I've said many times that I'm not a bball expert so I don't know if its his stubbornness or of his being overwhelmed. I tend to think it's his stubbornness because I can't see all of those coaches and assistants, who have spent multiple years in bball not suggesting adjustments or just leaving things as they are. That in itself is troubling because if that is the situation then obtaining all new assistants will do absolutely nothing. And this makes no sense when it is considered that winning games and getting to the tournament is the very benchmark of success. Having a winning record does not cut it today. I guess I'm just rambling but we have seen enough body of Millers work and I say the 9mil buyout is the reason JC's keeping him. And with CWM's history of portal acquisitions I don't see anything changing

You know Rufus, I believe that Miller, in 14 years of being a head coach, still has not figured out how to win games. You cannot teach anything to a team that you do not have yourself.

Miller's biggest problem is he cannot win enough games in conference play. Miller's overall conference losing rate is 56.7% and his BIG XII losing rate is 63%. In other words, there is a 63% chance that UC will lose its next game with a current conference opponent.

I have another question. What is miller going to do differently than he has done for the last 4 years? Miller only has an off season to figure that out.

Miller is in a tough spot. Make the NCAAs or else. Miller is in a bad spot because he does not understand how to win conference games. Let's see if Miller can live up to the challenge.

[bearcatlifer]

We are all very critical of Wes and rightfully so... but he is who he is and he has probably reached his top potential. That doesn't make him a bad person. The next level up is where the blame possibly lies. With the AD. He has got be feeling the heat for his job.He hired 2 unproven coaches and gave them ridiculous contracts. And now refuses to discuss or offer any explanations. He is likely scrambling right now and hitting his contacts .Looking for his next job.Lets go up another level. How did the Board and Dr Pinto let this happen? Is there no oversight !? Maybe they were so damn fixated on getting into a major conference that minor details like hiring competent coaches and winning games became less important.

[Rufus]

Leeraymond, We have seen Millers body of work. His statistics look good as an up and comer in the Southern conference. Even then he confessed it took him years to figure things out. So I don't understand why He keeps recruiting players to play in a system that has not worked.How many players has he gotten out of the portal that contribute next to nothing, sit the bench for one reason or another, and just takes up space on the bench. I know one can't foresee injuries but every year we have players that he has over evaluated thereby severely limiting himself in terms of rotation. His reluctance to make adjustments in game or player personnel is maddening at times. I didn't watch the game vs. OSU yesterday because there is not one player that I can point to on this squad that knows what it is to be a team. They're all playing for paychecks.
If it took four to five years for him to figure out the Southern conference, expecting him to figure out the B12, the NIL, and transfer portal all on one year increments in just one more year is asking a lot. John C messed up by not obtaining someone who had at least experience in a power conference.

[Gmann]

We know Miller has another year here and that's because of the buyout being so ridiulously high for a guy that has deliivered nothing in 4 years. I expect that he'll retain 5-7 of the current squad and the rest will move on. I fully expect that those that some of those that leave will have success elsewhere where there is developement and a better system much like Lakhin did. Not all of these guys are as bad as they appear in our flawed program.

I believe that even if Miller adds 5 McDonald All Americans (HaHa) to what he has remaining we won't see much improvement. He will pile up some wins early in pre-conference play against inferior opponents because his talent will be better. He will most certainly lose next year At Xavier even if he has the better roster. When he gets to B12 conference play he will have not developed anyone or figured out how to use them in a team concept and he will get outocoached just like he has the last 2 years. That should equate to winning about a third of his games in conference and be right back where we are on the outside looking in.

In saying all this I hope I'm wrong but as many have said nothing in his past indicates he just needs a reset. What we have seen is what he is. I do believe he realizes that he will only get one more shot and you would hope that would prompt him to make some significant changes in his program. I just don't think he's capable of making the right changes.

[Lobot]

I just want to clarify that the buyouts on Wes and Satt are a function of the market at the time of the contract signing/extension and very little to do with John Cunningham's ability to negotiate. John deserves some criticism for sure but we need to stop throwing him under the bus on this stuff. It's the coaches' agents, not John.

[Gypo O'Leary]

I'm going to defend We Miller a little.

First he took over a train wreck. Mika Adams Woods, David DeJulius and Lahkin stuck with the program, and Wes was loyal to them. I never thought highly of DeJulius or Adams Woods and thought they were impeding Wes from putting a team on the floor that I liked. Then I thought Wes had done well. He found Aziz, a rim protector. Skillings and James were exciting athletes. Day Day was a competent point guard. Lukosius was a set shooter with range. For the most part, this team appeared to be at least competitive and as a first year in the Big 12, they did as well as expected.

I would note, t watched some Big 12 B-ball because of Huggins. Baylor, Iowa St., K-State, and of course Kansas year in and year out, solid. Texas Tech and WVa. not far behind. With Arizona, BYU getting thrown in, Cincinnati was going to have a hard time being in the top five teams in that league. I would not expect that to happen in two years.

This year's team was a disappointment. Frederick and Hickman were useless. Mitchell is either not being used right or the offense is wrong. But Page, Betsey and Griffith are all top 60 HS recruits in their respective years. Page and Betsey are 6'11 and 6'8". That gives you size. Mitchell / Griffith give you swing men. If you get some young guards (no backups for JJ/ Day Day this year) and another Big to add to these existing players, next year's team will be a lot better than this year.

With Frederick and Hickman being scratches, and Aziz & SL not really Big 12 level talent, this years team was thin and week. I would have preferred getting Page and Betsey PT, but I get it ...up until the K-State loss last week, they were in the hunt for March Madness. Next year will be the season in which you will see if Wes can coach or not.

[Gmann]

I'm going to defend We Miller a little.

First he took over a train wreck. Mika Adams Woods, David DeJulius and Lahkin stuck with the program, and Wes was loyal to them. I never thought highly of DeJulius or Adams Woods and thought they were impeding Wes from putting a team on the floor that I liked. Then I thought Wes had done well. He found Aziz, a rim protector. Skillings and James were exciting athletes. Day Day was a competent point guard. Lukosius was a set shooter with range. For the most part, this team appeared to be at least competitive and as a first year in the Big 12, they did as well as expected.

I would note, t watched some Big 12 B-ball because of Huggins. Baylor, Iowa St., K-State, and of course Kansas year in and year out, solid. Texas Tech and WVa. not far behind. With Arizona, BYU getting thrown in, Cincinnati was going to have a hard time being in the top five teams in that league. I would not expect that to happen in two years.

This year's team was a disappointment. Frederick and Hickman were useless. Mitchell is either not being used right or the offense is wrong. But Page, Betsey and Griffith are all top 60 HS recruits in their respective years. Page and Betsey are 6'11 and 6'8". That gives you size. Mitchell / Griffith give you swing men. If you get some young guards (no backups for JJ/ Day Day this year) and another Big to add to these existing players, next year's team will be a lot better than this year.

With Frederick and Hickman being scratches, and Aziz & SL not really Big 12 level talent, this years team was thin and week. I would have preferred getting Page and Betsey PT, but I get it ...up until the K-State loss last week, they were in the hunt for March Madness. Next year will be the season in which you will see if Wes can coach or not.

Four years in and a different set of excuses every year. Miller will get you in the conversation but always fades down the stretch. I agree next year is the last chance and my bet is that it will be more of the same. I saw Louisville and WVA each hire new coaches and turn over their rosters and both are on target to make the dance this year. With WVA they lost their best player early on for the entire season. We as fans have been conditioned to lower the standard for what is acceptable and that's a shame.

[Gmann]

I just want to clarify that the buyouts on Wes and Satt are a function of the market at the time of the contract signing/extension and very little to do with John Cunningham's ability to negotiate. John deserves some criticism for sure but we need to stop throwing him under the bus on this stuff. It's the coaches' agents, not John.

Two coaching picks and so far two misses by Cunningham. I'm not sure I understand why Miller even deserved an extension given his accomplishments (zero) but I admit I may be out of touch with that aspect. Are you getting any pulse on how the major boosters are feeling these days?

[zykarious]

I'm going to defend We Miller a little.

First he took over a train wreck. Mika Adams Woods, David DeJulius and Lahkin stuck with the program, and Wes was loyal to them. I never thought highly of DeJulius or Adams Woods and thought they were impeding Wes from putting a team on the floor that I liked. Then I thought Wes had done well. He found Aziz, a rim protector. Skillings and James were exciting athletes. Day Day was a competent point guard. Lukosius was a set shooter with range. For the most part, this team appeared to be at least competitive and as a first year in the Big 12, they did as well as expected.

I would note, t watched some Big 12 B-ball because of Huggins. Baylor, Iowa St., K-State, and of course Kansas year in and year out, solid. Texas Tech and WVa. not far behind. With Arizona, BYU getting thrown in, Cincinnati was going to have a hard time being in the top five teams in that league. I would not expect that to happen in two years.

This year's team was a disappointment. Frederick and Hickman were useless. Mitchell is either not being used right or the offense is wrong. But Page, Betsey and Griffith are all top 60 HS recruits in their respective years. Page and Betsey are 6'11 and 6'8". That gives you size. Mitchell / Griffith give you swing men. If you get some young guards (no backups for JJ/ Day Day this year) and another Big to add to these existing players, next year's team will be a lot better than this year.

With Frederick and Hickman being scratches, and Aziz & SL not really Big 12 level talent, this years team was thin and week. I would have preferred getting Page and Betsey PT, but I get it ...up until the K-State loss last week, they were in the hunt for March Madness. Next year will be the season in which you will see if Wes can coach or not.

On the one hand, I think Wes has a shot at turning it around. He has shown he's really good at some things and has a strong desire to win. He has plenty of veteran coaches he can turn to for advice (Roy Williams and Mick being just two of them). I think our chances are better next year with Wes than with a brand new coach (and all the roster turnover that entails). A lot of fans are acting like a new coach is a sure thing to turn us around, but we've seen over the last 6 years that a new coach is a risky undertaking.

On the other hand, top 5 big 12 wasn't the expectation in year 4. Gradual improvement and getting us to the NCAA tournament was. Despite retaining many of it's players, this years team is no better than last years team.

Is that entirely Wes's fault? I'd say no, Skillings and Simas are ultimately responsible for their own regressions. I'm sure the lack of a scoring wing, when anyone preseason would have said we have at least two on the roster hurt Wes's plans for offense. But roster construction, recruiting and starting a 4/5 both of whom can't score that falls on Wes. The lack of a big body who can bang with 240lb guys, that's on Wes. Having no depth at center, again on Wes. Maybe part of it is bad luck with McKinley's injury, but if he was relying on a freshman to come in and take care of all of that, he was taking too much of a risk.

Also, on recruiting, definitely does great if you look at number of stars or recruiting rankings. But the actual success rates of guys once they come here are no better than average (and arguably worse). Three transfers this year, two of them (Hickman and Page) were busts (I count Hickman as a bust because he sucked before he got injured) and Mitchell under-performed his billing (he'd be great if he played harder).

[longtimefan]

A lot of us on here underestimate how much this team lost when John Newman graduated. Reed was probably our best defender this year, but he was no replacement. Newman was a better scorer too.

[Rufus]

Nobody is saying that a new coach is the answer for an automatic invite to the dance next year. In fact dumping a coach and hitting a new one typically sets a program 1-3 years typically. What some are saying is that giving Miller another year and then going with a new hire takes that 1-3 years to almost five theoretically. So some would say to make the move now to cut our losses. Nothing in his resume indicates that he can turn things around.
All the prognosticators had the 'cats as high as sixteen in the polls at one time this year, we had all the pieces to compete and people had us picked at number 6 in the conference. As everyone was a witness when we got to the conference schedule the wheels fell off. This team quit playing, was it Miller's coaching, or was it egos clashing between prima donna players or the coaches clashing? Why all of a sudden when one player starts making shots we begin to win some games. Even against the cupcake portion of the schedule it was noticed that when 4 or more players scored in double figures we usually won. I can only remember one game in the conference when we had four in DD's.
If you as a coach are continually playing a player that does not give you his full ability then you find one that will. Unless of course the coach is being manipulated by an outside source.We will never know what transpired to begin the conference but after all the dust has settled, two of the five who typically start and were here last year are well below their numbers in scoring and rebounds the other has not played up to the billing as advertised. There is the outside chance that the plan all along was to wait until the conference tourney to win it all in order to get into the tournament but I wouldn't bank on that or a dramatic change from this years.

[zykarious]

Nobody is saying that a new coach is the answer for an automatic invite to the dance next year. In fact dumping a coach and hitting a new one typically sets a program 1-3 years typically. What some are saying is that giving Miller another year and then going with a new hire takes that 1-3 years to almost five theoretically. So some would say to make the move now to cut our losses. Nothing in his resume indicates that he can turn things around.
All the prognosticators had the 'cats as high as sixteen in the polls at one time this year, we had all the pieces to compete and people had us picked at number 6 in the conference. As everyone was a witness when we got to the conference schedule the wheels fell off. This team quit playing, was it Miller's coaching, or was it egos clashing between prima donna players or the coaches clashing? Why all of a sudden when one player starts making shots we begin to win some games. Even against the cupcake portion of the schedule it was noticed that when 4 or more players scored in double figures we usually won. I can only remember one game in the conference when we had four in DD's.
If you as a coach are continually playing a player that does not give you his full ability then you find one that will. Unless of course the coach is being manipulated by an outside source.We will never know what transpired to begin the conference but after all the dust has settled, two of the five who typically start and were here last year are well below their numbers in scoring and rebounds the other has not played up to the billing as advertised. There is the outside chance that the plan all along was to wait until the conference tourney to win it all in order to get into the tournament but I wouldn't bank on that or a dramatic change from this years.

If it was free, I'm certain Wes would be gone. But we save 5 million by gambling on him next year and 10 million if he manages to turn it around, make the NCAA tournament and not get fired (just please don't immediately give him a new extension with a high buyout if he does manage it).

Wes better have learned his lesson about getting players who care. I expect player retention and recruitment to reflect that and probably a new assistant coach or two as well. He definitely should have given Reed more minutes earlier and probably more minutes to Griffith and Betsey as well. If a majority of the guys who I'd say have lower effort (Jizzle, Mitchell, Skillings and Page) return, that's a huge red flag for me.

[bearcatlifer]

JBB... Id accept Chris Mack in a heartbeat. He got the shaft at Louisville.