John Brannen

[Lobot]

Well, I'm glad he finally said something seeing as how he was the one with the most experience with JB as a coach. If nothing changed between here and NKU and the conditioning was nearly identical as Vogt says it was, is that really a good thing? He confirms the player passing out and the free throw running part of the investigation. The thing is he doesn't think it was really that bad because the player got immediate medical attention.

So the question becomes is JB not as bad as we think or is Vogt unable to recognize quality coaching. I jokingly wondered a while back if Vogt had Stockholm Syndrome.

[red_n_black_attack]

Let's see what Vogt can do and experience at Wisconsin. Gard is no Bo Ryan, but I am sure he is a good coach surviving 6 seasons in the B!G. Until then, I take Vogt's support of Brannen with several grains of salt.

[Longtime Lurker]

Long time lurker, first time commenter. Have been following this discussion for a while. I'm a little surprised that the tenor of the discussion seems to have shifted back to believing Brannen's side of things, based primarily on the lawsuit filing, which is of course going to support only his side of the story. To be transparent, I was intiially cautiously optimistic about his hire and felt like it might bring a good shakeup to the program-and was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt this year between COVID, his dad's passing, etc. With that being said, I'm with others in feeling like the visual of him walking out on his team at the end of the Houston tourney debacle was really telling-and like nothing I have seen before (I even got to the point of trying to make excuses for him, like maybe he was ill). Then I was initially willing to buy the argument that maybe this was just sour grapes from "spoiled" players/families.

I changed to the "Brannen must go/I'm glad he's gone" camp as more revelations about practices and his odd/manipulative interactions with the players came out. While I know we all believe we had "practices from ****" back in our glory days, ran 'til we puked and kept going, etc-I think we need to understand/accept that D1 athletes these days are in significantly better shape at baseline than many of us were "back in the day"-with the better focus on nutrition, personal training, etc, these kids are all at a baseline level of fitness far beyond what used to be the case-so for practices to be taken to the point of a relatively elite athlete passing out is quite concerning. For a coach to not be able to look at this happening and think that something is wrong, but instead to double down and try to avoid the scrutiny of the medical staff (if this is indeed what happened) is appalling and reckless.

I understand that we all have favorite players (Leo, just like your affection for Zach Harvey, I still feel like we missed out on a potential gem when Logan Johnson left), but it seems like we are again pitting the players against each other. Recently Mason Madsen is getting painted as being "the bad guy"-which I think in some cases is because he is viewed by some as taking away time from other favorites, and partly due to the statement attributed to him (again, FROM BRANNEN"S LAWYERS) about "getting the power back"-which Madsen denied saying. I'm not sure why we are picking and choosing when we believe the players, and which ones we do. I do realize that DDJ and Vogt have spoken out in support of JB, but Brannen's management style is designed to pit players against each other and establish favorites/give some people a feeling of being the "standard bearer of the culture" which I think would appeal to someone like DDJ who does seems to have a natural inclination towards being a vocal leader. In the case of Vogt, while I'm sure he is a hard worker and good person, I would tend to agree with Lobot's suggestion of a bit of Stockholm syndrome, in addition to the fact that JB was his ticket to playing time at a higher level than he would otherwise have gotten (I guess we will see this year when he is at Wisconsin).

For me (and again, I realize that I too am picking and choosing who to count most highly), I was probably most swayed by Jarron Cumberland's interview. I was as disturbed as anyone by what I perceived as Jarron's "poor body language" and perceived sulking during his senior year (especially the Colgate debacle which I got to experience first hand and close up). With that being said, I think Jarron should also be accepted as a Bearcat great (i was a little surprised to see some of his career stats) who prospered under a hard-*** coach. His statements in that interview were thoughtful, well stated, and damning of exactly how "off" JB really seems to be as a coach. If nothing else, he seems utterly unable to relate to players, inflexible to an extreme (hence refusing to recruit in any meaningful way this year even as it was painfully obvious that he was never going to be able to meet with recruits in person) , and guilty of getting motivational techniques from the most suspect of sources (that freaking urn, an idea stolen from Chris Mack?!). I'd like to think he is not the anti-Christ he is sometimes made out to be, but it seems clear to me that he had to go. Whether or not there was enough "cause" and whether we think the AD botched the whole thing or cleverly kept his cards close to his vest seems to vary from week to week based on whatever "revelations" come out. I just feel like we may have let the pendulum swing too far back to believing everything from JB's camp, especially as we have also spent a lot of time establishing that Tom Mars is in fact good at his job of representing his client (regardless of what the facts may actually be). We are never going to know the full story here given the litigation, and what we do know is always going to be interpreted to support whatever position the commenter believes.

Sorry, a LOT of words to say that I just don't think we are going to fully know who is "right" here-but reasonable folks can agree to disagree and support our Bearcats together (my kumbaya moment for the day).

[GoBearcats31]

Welcome Longtime Lurker - appreciate your thoughts!

[ucmba2002]

Well, I'm glad he finally said something seeing as how he was the one with the most experience with JB as a coach. If nothing changed between here and NKU and the conditioning was nearly identical as Vogt says it was, is that really a good thing? He confirms the player passing out and the free throw running part of the investigation. The thing is he doesn't think it was really that bad because the player got immediate medical attention.

So the question becomes is JB not as bad as we think or is Vogt unable to recognize quality coaching. I jokingly wondered a while back if Vogt had Stockholm Syndrome.

All that article did for me was confirm my belief that Brannen was in way over his head trying to run a major program. He was trying to use tactics that work at low D1 levels schools and ignore probably one of the best athletic training/medical staffs in the country. I think Wes will do a better job avoiding those pitfalls.

[leo from jersey]

long time lurker. I was ZH over Madsen for a number of basketball skill reasons. ZH had a higher FG & FT percentage. Madsen was horrible on defense getting beat time and time again off the dribble. Madsen passes while not turn overs didn't hit others in stride and were slow developing. On Logan I agree with you. I thought he would blossom, but MC didn't take him at UCLA. Go figure.
I am far from on the Mr Brannen bandwagon, but I can give some mercy (at least understanding) why he walked off the court. I didn't like it, there were conditions and I believe Mr. Brannen knew his time was up. That doesn't excuse his behavior, but I could place myself in his shoes. I hope I would have stayed, but who knows just what exactly was taking place.

I am glad that Wes Miller is the coach and I sure hope that we don't regret this in two years.

[TheDog]

No matter what Brannen was going through, he should never abandon his players like he did at the end of the Houston game.

[leo from jersey]

No matter what Brannen was going through, he should never abandon his players like he did at the end of the Houston game.

well he has paid for it.

[GoBearcats31]

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/spo...st/7459188002/
- According to Jenkins' article, UC has until August 6 to respond to the Brannen complaint
- UC is paying $380/hour to an outside firm to conduct an investigation, which is expected to stop at the end of the month to the extent the investigation is still ongoing ($49,000 budget)

[Lobot]

UC has filed to dismiss Brannen's wrongful termination suit per the Athletic.

Link: ($)

https://theathletic.com/news/cincinn...t/pnEZpMw06LsJ

[London 'Cat]

MTDs are very common in constitutional rights cases. I don't know whether the motion will be granted by the court. The article concludes that the filing of the motion means UC is not interested in settling but I disagree. UC may still be interested in settling but are trying to narrow down the scope of his claims before beginning settlement negotiations. My $.02.

[swilsonsp4]

I'm not an attorney, and perhaps one here can clarify, but the gist of the UC counsel argument is that Brannen's suit violates the 11th Amendment to the US Constitution. I had to read the amendment, which essentially states that a residence of another state may not sue an entity of another state. Brannen lives in Kentucky. Does that have a shot?

[GoBearcats31]

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...it/5657583001/

Not sure if this is paywalled or not, but it contains a link to the MTD.

Also one of the lawyers for UC is UC Law grad Billy Martin.

"Martin, described in a 2015 Washington Post profile as a "go-to lawyer when you're in trouble," has represented sports stars such as Allen Iverson. He lives and works in Washington, D.C., but he started his career as a state and federal prosecutor in Cincinnati – after he went to law school at UC. He received an honorary doctorate from UC in 2014."

[DesertFog]

I too would like to hear the opinions of the lawyers on this list. Not on just the MTD but also on the merits of JB's lawyers argument re denial of due process. My own view, which is not at all relevant and only serves to demonstrate my legal naivete , is good grief! What should matter is whether JB should have been fired or not. Period!

[longtimefan]

Coach Brannen has dropped his lawsuit against UC.

https://twitter.com/williams_justin/...928103938?s=21
https://twitter.com/collegead/status...064233472?s=21